Benjiboi 23:34, (UTC) And from that you are making your own deduction that the only possible reason someone could have opened that window was so that Dan White could get in that way. 14:18, (UTC) Mwelch, i believe milk's homosexuality is relevant to this article, up to a point. It's fairly easy to find citations that people thought that homophobia was the real reason for the unexpectedly light verdict and sentence, and this made them more prone to believe that the "Twinkie defense" had actually been offered as the purported reason, even though the. But that is the limit of the extent to which it is relevant. Benjiboi keeps showing that he is less interested in the facts than in pushing his agenda by referring to the "atmosphere of why "twinkie defense" worked ignoring the fact that it didn't. There is no need for the material he keeps trying to add specifying what the White night riots consisted of; that is what the article White night riots is for. There is absolutely no need for the material he keeps adding to the references in popular culture section, which I will" here: Execution of Justice is an award-winning ensemble play by Emily mann chronicling the case of the people. Dan White which is cited to law students as one of the leading examples of a miscarriage of justice.
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Mwelch 03:38, (UTC) Generally agreed. I've tried to flesh out the section but not sure i've captured the "old boy network" idea that White was a former police officer and firefighter and was generally national ostracized as a conservative fringe by the newly liberal board that had just taken control. San Francisco had just turned to district elections so each district voted for residents of their areas to represent them. In the trial, (not sure if this info fits or is useful) it was pointed out that a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun. Benjiboi 21:34, (UTC) "a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun"? That's a rather powerful assertion of wrongdoing, accusing some unknown party of premeditated assistance to homicide. Where is your citation? 15:54, (UTC) I'm not writing the book so haven't dug through the trial transcripts or newspaper accounts of the trial, as i've stated "not sure if this info fits or is useful." If someone wants to dig for it then go for. Benjiboi 23:26, (UTC) hi, i realized that the above statement "a cop or firefighter had unlocked a window or opened a door so (former-employee) White could enter with a gun" makes less sense unless you know that the assassinations occurred in San Francisco's City hall. The windows that were accessible from the street level were secured and, i believe, the only folks who had access to the window that was unlocked was police and firemen. White was both a former cop and fireman.
How/why would that cause his defense team to not try to used diminished capacity as his defense? If there is a reliable source reference that discusses legal reasons why milk's homosexuality might have made a diminished capacity defense more suitable, then that source should be cited daddy and the concept fully explored in this article. Without that, though, there is nothing that indicates Milk's homosexuality is relevant to this specific article about this type of legal defense. It seems to me that it was White's best play regardless of Milk's sexuality. Mwelch 03:22, (UTC) Upon thinking about it some more, i actually can see a compelling argument for relevance given the widespread belief (as evidenced by the riots) that defense would not have actually worked had it not been for Milk's homosexuality. As I say above, i can't see that it affects the decision to try it, but clearly many felt and feel that homophobia on the part of the jurors made them more willing to buy it than they might have been otherwise. So that is valid point. But still, it's a point that would need to made in full in the article, not just with the two-word "openly gay" addition in front of Milk's name.
So it's easy to put forth the argument that even though White was personally homophobic, his specific reason for killing people was political opposition, not the sexual orientation. And even more importantly here. I've never seen a single reference that suggests the reason the defense team chose for the diminished capacity defense was that Milk was gay. If that were true, i agree that would make the point relevant in this article. (And even then, it would need to be expounded upon in the article listing more than just the two word addition.) But there definitely needs to be a reliable source attribution before the article accepts that suggestion as true. To be honest, i'm not even sure that I follow how that suggestion even makes sense. What if Milk had not been gay? What if (just for the sake of example) he was straight and thus there was no argument that White had killed him solely for political reasons as indicated above?
diogenes00 21:32, (UTC) It might be worth keeping as a "see also though. antaeus Feldspar 22:40, (UTC) Relevance of Milk's homosexuality edit regarding the assertion that Milk's homosexuality is important to note in this article because "it was because of his being openly gay that the murders occured and allegedly the reason the defense was employed." It's. Admittedly, it's a very widely held opinion (and indeed, my personal opinion is that it was at the very least a significant contributing factor in White's not stopping with Moscone, but rather moving on to milk also). But it's still an opinion, so i'd have to object to a wikipedia article assuming it as a fact. The immediate precipitating factor was that Moscone and Milk were blocking his re-entry to the board. Moscone was not gay. A friend of White's has"d him as later admitting that he wanted to shoot Carol Ruth Silver and Willie brown too. Obviously, neither of them was gay. But they were both instrumental in blocking him from getting back on the board, just like milk and Moscone were.
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user:ZachPruckowski ah, gotcha. Yeah, i agree - in fact, the article used to make the connection more explicitely. Dunno what happened to that. seth Mahoney 21:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Also, this article is related to gay rights because the gay panic defense is basically just a specific version of the Twinkie defense. These two articles should cross-reference eachother.- seanQuixote talk my contribs 04:59, (UTC) Analogy edit i think a lot of people have trouble even today understanding what the defense was really arguing, why they were bringing the Twinkies into. I think they might understand it better if an analogy was drawn: If a particular person was known to care very deeply for his personal appearance, and to put great effort into his clothes and his grooming, then seeing that person show up somewhere poorly.
Can this analogy be added without being original research? antaeus Feldspar 15:09, (UTC) Actually, according to one of the linked articles, White's abandonment of personal grooming was also cited by the defense as evidence of his depression. antaeus Feldspar 14:25, (UTC) Chewbacca defense edit At the end of the "References in Popular Culture" section, there's mention of the south Park "Chewbacca defense" bit. I thought that was more a reference to cochran's defense of oj simpson and the "If the glove don't fit, you must identity acquit" line? Kai macTane 17:54, (UTC) i agree, that was a direct ref to the oj trial.
I'll see if one is available and do my best to write an appropriate caption that clarifies it's inclusion. Benjiboi 05:31, (UTC) Done. Benjiboi 06:06, (UTC) I don't remember this part of that movie, and i've seen it dozens of times. My mistake, it was actually from Trial and Error (film), which is filled with homages to my cousin Vinny. Staxringold 21:33, (UTC) "although the latter concept has yet to gain complete acceptance in the.
Legal community." is hilarious. 07:27, (UTC) How does this related to lgbt? It's in that category, and doesn't seem directly relevant. The article could use an explanation of why it is in that category, if there is a reason. user:ZachPruckowski just had a look at the article - its not as explicit as it once was. If you follow the links to harvey milk and White night riots, you'll have a better idea of how it is an lgbt issue. seth Mahoney 06:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC) I'm just coming at this from the perspective of someone who had never heard of the case. It does make sense if you follow the links in the article, but I feel like it ought to have some mention of it in the actual article. I don't feel confident enough to actually put it in myself.
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Bullzeye 10:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC) i've gone ahead and added the section. The reference is the Snopes urban legend page, which is already listed. Bullzeye 10:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC). It already did point out the "actual etymology of the phrase". You know this, because you moved it further down the page. I honestly don't think moving it further down is a good idea, but I'm salon going to try keeping it in its current place and cleaning up the phrasing a bit to see if we can make the actual sequence of events clearer. antaeus Feldspar 02:03, (UTC) Twinkie image edit does having a picture of several Twinkies really enhance this article? Admittedly it's named after them but it's not about them. (note to self, sign in before editing) Howdoesthiswo 01:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC) Actually i think a photo would be quite helpful for the majority of folks who haven't a clue what one.
Given that reagan was govenor of California, immodest and that the reforming laws were passed in 1982, i would surmise that the law had more to do with the hinckley verdict than the verdict for White. I am sure White's verdict played a part, but it just seems like a not guilty verdict being delivered for a man who shot the current president and former govenor would have more of an impact on the state legislature. No, actually Proposition 8 really was more attributable to the dan White case than the john Hinckley case. Prop 8 passed about two weeks before the verdict came in in the hinckley trial. In fact, "Remember Dan White" was something of a rallying cry among some of those who campaigned for Prop. Mwelch 00:27, (UTC) Oh, well mistake, and good to know. I've certainly never done any research into dan White, i just wrote a research paper about Hinckley and assumed that given the year there was a correlation. Misinterpretation edit i can't help but think this article could benefit from some re-organization in terms of pointing out the actual etymology of the phrase. It is so blatantly misinterpreted in common reference that I think the article should have a separate section addressing this, as opposed to merely a one-sentence mention.
and improve citations: david Thai. Images : This article is within the scope of wikiproject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed. B this article has been rated as b-class on the project's quality scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Edit The article describes the Twinkie defense as refering to a biological component. In the usage i've heard it has always refered to any defense which people consider suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ( talk ) 18:33, (UTC) Change in Insanity defense laws edit not that this is really that big of a deal, but I would like to point out one thing about crediting the White trial with reform in California's insantiy. Another, and much bigger, trial, the trial of John Hinckley. And his attempted assassination of Ronald reagan, occurred in 1982. The outcome of that trial, which i am certain everyone is aware of, lead to a great deal of public outrage and federal as well as state reform of insantity defense laws.
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